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000107_icon-group-sender _Wed May 17 16:24:48 2000.msg
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by baskerville.CS.Arizona.EDU (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id QAA19139
for icon-group-addresses; Wed, 17 May 2000 16:24:21 -0700 (MST)
Message-Id: <200005172324.QAA19139@baskerville.CS.Arizona.EDU>
From: "Ian Trudel" <ian.trudel@tr.cgocable.ca>
To: "Icon Project Group" <icon-group@optima.CS.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Is Anyone Working On A Unicode Version Of Icon?
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 17:24:01 -0400
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"Marc Espie" <espie@liafa.jussieu.fr> a �crit dans le message news:
200005171923.MAA09697@baskerville.CS.Arizona.EDU...
> In article <200005171443.HAA00845@baskerville.CS.Arizona.EDU>,
> Ian Trudel <ian.trudel@tr.cgocable.ca> wrote:
> >3/ I feel your post "hide" something, like transforming Icon to some OOP
> >language. If we change Icon's nature, we're no longer having Icon. It'd
be
> >better to support Idol instead, in that concern.
> Wow, powerful drugs. Read what I write, and not what you feel like I'm
> writing.
Is it OK with you if my feeling is wrong? Whatever, you confirmed my feeling
was wrong, no need to add insult with it. ::)
> >4/ My point about platform availability was about backward compatibility.
I
> >know that nowaday's machines and system have C++ compilers available, but
> >Icon also runs on older machines/systems.
> I'm perfectly aware of the machines Icon runs upon.
> Don't speak about `older machines/systems', give me the name of one such
> system which does not support a C++ compiler. Speaking in generalities
> lead nowhere.
I'm sorry about this point. Indeed, I don't really care about C++, I usually
avoid projects requiring it. I'm not taking part of an official C++
opposition! I'm not going to build a list of plateforms that don't support
C++, if any. That'd be pointless as well as speaking about generalities.
> >5/ and finaly, speed issue only speaks by benchmarking.
> I've run some fairly large icon projects in the past. I have a fairly good
> idea about what slowed them down eventually. I even have a submitted paper
> to a conference that pits icon against maple and C++.
Now that's interesting, is your paper online?
> >There is many things that was not even concerned in the seventies and
> >eighties, such as resuability, portability, information hidding and
stuff.
> >So, the techniques have lot changed and there is more and more valuable
> >documents on the newer way of implementing old concepts (nowaday's GC
> >implementations are just crazy, it almost worth any custom made memory
> >management. There is just almost no reason to not use GC now ::).
>
> Like wow, I was around in the eighties, and I haven't noticed portability
> and reusability coming out of nowhere... It was around pretty much
forever...
Funny, they're still talking about it today. Actually, I haven't worked for
huge companies that have plenty of money to pay me to make things fully
reuseable. But I've been pretty lucky cause most of the time, my bosses
allowed me to take the time to think about reusable components. However,
many of my friends are working in small and average companies that are
willing them to produce results fast-fast-fast. They know and talk about
reusability with me, they have interesting point of views on it.. but they
actually never reuse anything nor making things to be reusable. My point is,
they are nice words, but the code doesn't always show their significations.
It was true yestarday, in eighties, it's still (too often, in my taste) true
today. Yet, I'm younger, so the eighties is sometime blurry in my mind, but
I have plenty of books that reminds me the decade.
I'm not willing to fight with you or anyone. My interests are not in
rewriting Icon, though having an intelligent conversation with people on
this list may be instructive and interesting. I'm primarly interested in
adding ONE specific feature to Icon so it would let us extent some parts of
the language without remodeling/rewriting the whole implementation and
create some new dialect(s). Some other things along this feature such as
Icon to "whatever language you want" may be interesting as well. If you're
not personally interested by this topic, it's ok, let's just stop messages
here.
regards,
Ian Trudel, aka BackOrder
StarTrip Server Administrator
http://startrip.gene6.com/